Can anyone point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz.

TIA

Liam Ness wrote:

> Can anyone point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
> cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
> broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz.

Unless you're experienced with microwave equipment construction, you won't
have much luck building such a thing. Even if you were able to, it'd be
illegal for you to use it.

--

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To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
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On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:13:55 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Liam Ness wrote:
>
>> Can anyone point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
>> cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
>> broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz.
>
>Unless you're experienced with microwave equipment construction, you won't
>have much luck building such a thing. Even if you were able to, it'd be
>illegal for you to use it.

I've been homebrewing in the 50Mhz range for a few months, so I'm game
to try the higher frequencies. I've become pretty good at putting
things together, but I don't have the background to design something
myself.

I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
the past by the cell phone manufacters.

So, if you can point me to a source for circuit/schematic information
or to back up your claim on the wattage I'd be thankful. If you have
the backup for your wattage claim, I'd be thankful if you could also
point me to a source that defines max output at each cell frequency.

Liam Ness wrote:

> I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
> would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
> regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
> frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
> the past by the cell phone manufacters.
>

Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.

Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for regulations.


--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:17:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Liam Ness wrote:
>
>> I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
>> would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
>> regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
>> frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
>> the past by the cell phone manufacters.
>>
>
>Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
>their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
>equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
>government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
>and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.
>
>Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for regulations.

Well, that is exactly it isn't it? I am an amateur building my own
equipment. Everything I've done so far, and that I intend to do
should be covered under section 15.23. Since it will be a home built
device, I'm not subject to certification, a declaration of conformity,
or verification. I guess that wasn't clear?


There are a very few frequencies that are totally off limits under
part 15, but not the cellular frequencies. There are some absolute
limits to power output which vary by frequency, which is what I
thought that you were basing your statement that 3 watts would be
illegal, but there are certain protections to even those limits for
home built devices. The FCC doesn't expect me to have access to the
type of equipement necessary to measure my output (whether for power,
harmonics, distortion, etc.). And, from my reading of section 15.23
and 15.5 [particularly 15.5(c)], even if I totally screw up and home
build a really noisy amp, I have not done anything unlawful.

If you think otherwise and can point me to the specific law and/or
regulation that leads you to your conclusion, I'd appreciate it. If
you know the specific absolute part 15 power limits for the 800 and
1900 cellular frequencies in watts (I have no way to determine field
strenght in microvolts/meter), I'd appreciate that, too.

If not, I'd appreciate it even more if you or anyone else can

"point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz."

Liam Ness <working@the.factory> wrote in article
<7flpnvs0lgoinsb1qua09ob5b6ip643n1s@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:17:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Liam Ness wrote:
> >
> >> I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
> >> would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
> >> regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
> >> frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
> >> the past by the cell phone manufacters.
> >>
> >
> >Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
> >their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
> >equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
> >government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
> >and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.
> >
> >Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for regulations.
>
> Well, that is exactly it isn't it? I am an amateur building my own
> equipment. Everything I've done so far, and that I intend to do
> should be covered under section 15.23. Since it will be a home built
> device, I'm not subject to certification, a declaration of conformity,
> or verification. I guess that wasn't clear?
>
>
> There are a very few frequencies that are totally off limits under
> part 15, but not the cellular frequencies. There are some absolute
> limits to power output which vary by frequency, which is what I
> thought that you were basing your statement that 3 watts would be
> illegal, but there are certain protections to even those limits for
> home built devices. The FCC doesn't expect me to have access to the
> type of equipement necessary to measure my output (whether for power,
> harmonics, distortion, etc.). And, from my reading of section 15.23
> and 15.5 [particularly 15.5(c)], even if I totally screw up and home
> build a really noisy amp, I have not done anything unlawful.
>
> If you think otherwise and can point me to the specific law and/or
> regulation that leads you to your conclusion, I'd appreciate it. If
> you know the specific absolute part 15 power limits for the 800 and
> 1900 cellular frequencies in watts (I have no way to determine field
> strenght in microvolts/meter), I'd appreciate that, too.
>
> If not, I'd appreciate it even more if you or anyone else can
>
> "point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
> cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
> broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz."
>

Hams have authority to operate in 900 MHz as you probably know. Why
don't you experiment there and not take the chance of interfering with
the cellular/PCS band. Hams do not have privileges in the 800 & 1.9GHz
spectrum, why do you want to put your license in jeopardy?

Mark

[posted via phonescoop.com]

Liam Ness wrote:

> On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:17:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Liam Ness wrote:
>>
>>> I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
>>> would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
>>> regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
>>> frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
>>> the past by the cell phone manufacters.
>>>
>>
>>Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
>>their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
>>equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
>>government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
>>and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.
>>
>>Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for
>>regulations.
>
> Well, that is exactly it isn't it? I am an amateur building my own
> equipment. Everything I've done so far, and that I intend to do
> should be covered under section 15.23. Since it will be a home built
> device, I'm not subject to certification, a declaration of conformity,
> or verification. I guess that wasn't clear?

That amateur gear is for the amateur bands only. It does not apply to other
services, such as cell etc. Those must be approved by the government.
Then there's the licence issues. Your amateur radio license is good for
the amateur radio bands only.

>
>
> There are a very few frequencies that are totally off limits under
> part 15, but not the cellular frequencies. There are some absolute
> limits to power output which vary by frequency, which is what I
> thought that you were basing your statement that 3 watts would be
> illegal, but there are certain protections to even those limits for
> home built devices. The FCC doesn't expect me to have access to the
> type of equipement necessary to measure my output (whether for power,
> harmonics, distortion, etc.). And, from my reading of section 15.23
> and 15.5 [particularly 15.5(c)], even if I totally screw up and home
> build a really noisy amp, I have not done anything unlawful.

If you build a noisy amp, and screw up someone else's cell phone, you most
certainly have. Even using that amp, where you're not allowed to is
illegal.

Since you supposedly have an amateur radio licence, I'd expect you to be
more aware of the applicable laws.


>
> If you think otherwise and can point me to the specific law and/or
> regulation that leads you to your conclusion, I'd appreciate it. If
> you know the specific absolute part 15 power limits for the 800 and
> 1900 cellular frequencies in watts (I have no way to determine field
> strenght in microvolts/meter), I'd appreciate that, too.
>
> If not, I'd appreciate it even more if you or anyone else can
>
> "point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
> cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
> broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz."
>

--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:47:10 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Liam Ness wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:17:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Liam Ness wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'd be very interested in what you are basing your statement that it
>>>> would be illegal to use a 3 watt range rf amp. There definately are
>>>> regulations on how much power you can transmit on at the cellular
>>>> frequencies, but I believe 3 watts is alright as it has been done in
>>>> the past by the cell phone manufacters.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
>>>their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
>>>equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
>>>government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
>>>and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.
>>>
>>>Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for
>>>regulations.
>>
>> Well, that is exactly it isn't it? I am an amateur building my own
>> equipment. Everything I've done so far, and that I intend to do
>> should be covered under section 15.23. Since it will be a home built
>> device, I'm not subject to certification, a declaration of conformity,
>> or verification. I guess that wasn't clear?
>
>That amateur gear is for the amateur bands only. It does not apply to other
>services, such as cell etc. Those must be approved by the government.
>Then there's the licence issues. Your amateur radio license is good for
>the amateur radio bands only.

I never said that I had a amateur radio license. I told you
everything I do is under part 15. Part 15 covers UNLICENSED rf
transmissions. As is stated before there are very few frequencies
that are off limits to a part 15 device.

>
>>
>>
>> There are a very few frequencies that are totally off limits under
>> part 15, but not the cellular frequencies. There are some absolute
>> limits to power output which vary by frequency, which is what I
>> thought that you were basing your statement that 3 watts would be
>> illegal, but there are certain protections to even those limits for
>> home built devices. The FCC doesn't expect me to have access to the
>> type of equipement necessary to measure my output (whether for power,
>> harmonics, distortion, etc.). And, from my reading of section 15.23
>> and 15.5 [particularly 15.5(c)], even if I totally screw up and home
>> build a really noisy amp, I have not done anything unlawful.
>
>If you build a noisy amp, and screw up someone else's cell phone, you most
>certainly have. Even using that amp, where you're not allowed to is
>illegal.
>Since you supposedly have an amateur radio licence, I'd expect you to be
>more aware of the applicable laws.
>

Read the part 15 regulations, you may remember that you pointed me to
them. In particular 15.23 and 15.5. I am aware of the applicable
laws and regulations. Please note that I am giving citation to the
specific FCC regulations. Also note that I have asked you to give
specific law and/or regulations to support your statements, but you
only give vague referrence to applicable laws. At this point I am
pretty suspect about your understanding about "applicable laws". Your
assumption that I have a amateur license when I've stated that
everything I've done falls under part 15, suggests that you don't even
have a basic understanding of part 15. Part 15.1(a) defines the
scope of part 15 as covering UNLICENSED operation.

>>
>> If you think otherwise and can point me to the specific law and/or
>> regulation that leads you to your conclusion, I'd appreciate it. If
>> you know the specific absolute part 15 power limits for the 800 and
>> 1900 cellular frequencies in watts (I have no way to determine field
>> strenght in microvolts/meter), I'd appreciate that, too.
>>
>> If not, I'd appreciate it even more if you or anyone else can
>>
>> "point me to a source for circuit/schematic information on a
>> cellular rf amplifier? Preferrably something in the 3 watt range and
>> broad enough to handle 800Mhz & 1900Mhz."
>>


OK. It's clear that I've let this discussion go far afield from what
I asked. Based on your response it is also clear that you just don't
know what you are writting about. My original post was a request for
some technical RF design information, not a request for quasi-legal
interpretation. Since I have diverged, let's try to wrap this up.

Part 15 allows legal broadcasting on almost the entire RF spectrum.
It allows interfering (but notharmful interfering) broadcasting on
almost the entire RF spectrum. For example you can legally set up
your own part 15 AM station and broadcast anywhere on the AM dial.
You can legally set up your own part 15 FM statioin and broadcast
anywhere on the FM dial. You can get a list of some of these stations
at http://home.att.net/~weatheradio/part15.htm The fact that someone
else is alloted a particular portion of the RF spectrum does not
preclude concurrent part 15 use.

If we don't go above 2300Mhz, then with the exceptions of the
frequencies that I will list below, anyone can operate a part 15
device on any frequency from 1hz to 2300Mhz. (Huge parts of the
spectrum above 2300mhz are fine too, but not relevant to our
discussion) This operation is subject to part 15, which specifically
relaxes compliance for home built devices under section 15.23. If
device intended to comply with part 15 does not do so, section 15.5(c)
provides that the operator of the device has to stop using it after
being notified by the FCC. Please note that section 15.5(d)
specifically prohibits intentional RF damping emissions which prevents
RF jammers (cellular jamming, cordless phone jamming, etc.) from
claiming safehaven under part 15.

The following list covering 0 - 2300 Mhz is taken directly from
section 15.205 It deliniates the frequencies where part 15 DOES NOT
allow unlicensed used. Please note that the list of prohibited
frequencies DOES NOT include the 800 or 1900 cellular frequencies.

0.090-0.110 MHZ
0.495-0.505 MHZ
2.1735-2.1905 MHZ
4.125-4.128 MHZ
4.17725-4.17775 MHZ
4.20725-4.20775 MHZ
6.215-6.218 MHZ
6.26775-6.26825 MHZ
6.31175-6.31225 MHZ
8.291-8.294 MHZ
8.362-8.366 MHZ
8.37625-8.38675 MHZ
8.41425-8.41475 MHZ
12.29-12.293 MHZ
12.51975-12.52025 MHZ
12.57675-12.57725 MHZ
13.36-13.41 MHZ
16.42-16.423 MHZ
16.69475-16.69525 MHZ
16.80425-16.80475 MHZ
25.5-25.67 MHZ
37.5-38.25 MHZ
73-74.6 MHZ
74.8-75.2 MHZ
108-121.94 MHZ
123-138 MHZ
149.9-150.05 MHZ
156.52475-156.52525 MHZ
156.7-156.9 MHZ
162.0125-167.17 MHZ
167.72-173.2 MHZ
240-285 MHZ
322-335.4 MHZ
399.9-410 MHZ
608-614 MHZ
******* 800 MHZ CELLULAR WOULD BE HERE IF IT WERE PROHIBITED
960-1240 MHZ
1300-1427 MHZ
1435-1626.5 MHZ
1645.5-1646.5 MHZ
1660-1710 MHZ
1718.8-1722.2 MHZ
******* 1900 MHZ CELLULAR WOULD BE HERE IF IT WERE PROHIBITED
2200-2300 MHZ

Liam Ness <working@the.factory> wrote in article
<havqnvkbb8h9lt0sui9ausqko0c26ejeg5@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:47:10 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Liam Ness wrote:
>
> The following list covering 0 - 2300 Mhz is taken directly from
> section 15.205 It deliniates the frequencies where part 15 DOES NOT
> allow unlicensed used. Please note that the list of prohibited
> frequencies DOES NOT include the 800 or 1900 cellular frequencies.
>
> 0.090-0.110 MHZ
> 0.495-0.505 MHZ
> 2.1735-2.1905 MHZ
> 4.125-4.128 MHZ
> 4.17725-4.17775 MHZ
> 4.20725-4.20775 MHZ
> 6.215-6.218 MHZ
> 6.26775-6.26825 MHZ
> 6.31175-6.31225 MHZ
> 8.291-8.294 MHZ
> 8.362-8.366 MHZ
> 8.37625-8.38675 MHZ
> 8.41425-8.41475 MHZ
> 12.29-12.293 MHZ
> 12.51975-12.52025 MHZ
> 12.57675-12.57725 MHZ
> 13.36-13.41 MHZ
> 16.42-16.423 MHZ
> 16.69475-16.69525 MHZ
> 16.80425-16.80475 MHZ
> 25.5-25.67 MHZ
> 37.5-38.25 MHZ
> 73-74.6 MHZ
> 74.8-75.2 MHZ
> 108-121.94 MHZ
> 123-138 MHZ
> 149.9-150.05 MHZ
> 156.52475-156.52525 MHZ
> 156.7-156.9 MHZ
> 162.0125-167.17 MHZ
> 167.72-173.2 MHZ
> 240-285 MHZ
> 322-335.4 MHZ
> 399.9-410 MHZ
> 608-614 MHZ
> ******* 800 MHZ CELLULAR WOULD BE HERE IF IT WERE PROHIBITED
> 960-1240 MHZ
> 1300-1427 MHZ
> 1435-1626.5 MHZ
> 1645.5-1646.5 MHZ
> 1660-1710 MHZ
> 1718.8-1722.2 MHZ
> ******* 1900 MHZ CELLULAR WOULD BE HERE IF IT WERE PROHIBITED
> 2200-2300 MHZ
>

That is not what 15.205 states. It is clearly written that devices that
emit spurious emissions can only do so in the frequency bands listed in
the chart listed in the section or the same list that you so nicely
listed above (excluding the 800 MHz Cellular and 1900 MHz Cellular.

Section 15 is provided to limit the unintentional RF radiation of
devices that utilize circuitry capable of emitting RF interference. It
provides a baseline of maximum RF emissions allowed for an unlicensed
device.

If you want to experiment in an area close to microwave, go get your ham
license and play in the 900 band where the hams have privileges.

Mark

[posted via phonescoop.com]

Liam Ness wrote:

> Part 15.1(a) defines the
> scope of part 15 as covering UNLICENSED operation.

You'll also discover strict power limits on part 15 devices.

> >That amateur gear is for the amateur bands only. It does not apply to
other
> >services, such as cell etc. Those must be approved by the government.
> >Then there's the licence issues. Your amateur radio license is good for
> >the amateur radio bands only.
>
> I never said that I had a amateur radio license.

Then what did you mean by the following? Amateur radio is a licenced
service. You have to take tests to obtain an Amateur radio licence.

>Except for low power (part 15 of FCC regs in U.S.) or amateurs building
>their own equipment, you cannot legally use any home made transmitting
>equipment or amplifiers. Such equipment must be certified by the relevant
>government agency in your country. You can certainly buy a certified amp
>and use it, but you'd have a big job to get your own device certified.
>
>Check with the FCC in U.S., Industry Canada in Canada etc., for
regulations.

Well, that is exactly it isn't it? I am an amateur building my own
equipment.

By amateurs building their own equipment, that refers to those licenced for
the Amateur Radio service. If you don't have such a licence, you cannot
use any transmitting equipment (including amplifiers) that you built
yourself, except under part 15. The amp you want to build, is far more
powerful than what part 15 allows.

> Based on your response it is also clear that you just don't
> know what you are writting about. My original post was a request for
> some technical RF design information, not a request for quasi-legal
> interpretation. Since I have diverged, let's try to wrap this up.

I was pointing out that:

a) what you're trying to do, is not likely to succeed, because of required
construction practices and materials required for microwave circuits

b) show that what you're trying to do is illegal.

And having held a radio licence for over 30 years, and having worked for
much of that time, with communications systems, including microwave
equipment, not to mention majored in electrical engineering, I think I
have a bit more knowledge and experience than you appear to claim.


--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.